Frisco

Lousia wrote: "I think we're missing the point here, at the end of the day (she says reluctantly), its a bloody burger, if it was a decent meal for ?20 fair enough, but come on now, who pays that for a burger goddamnit?" I do, if I'm having it as a meal, rather than a fast food snack. Which is something I don't tend to do, unless I'm on my way to Norfolk and stop off at a roadside place that's famous for its burgers. Also, if you think all burgers are the same, then you have been misled. They vary greatly in quality depending on the meat used to prepare them, and the other contents. I actually don't often eat burgers, but I have an American friend who does and I trust his judgement. He rates GBK quite highly, and does so based on their quality and that of the ingredients (which, being diabetic, he checks), as opposed to that of the fast food alternative you've referred to. On the issue of eating with 'filth', I guess this is back to the class issue that keeps raising its ugly head. I'm quite happy eating in local caffs when I wish to, and I don't mind who else is in there either, as long as they behave properly, and don't rant loudly, particular if it's in an aggressive or a Daily Mailesque manner.

"On the few times I have been there I have found it extremely off puttingly noisy." I agree. I've eaten in lots of PEs over the years, but this is the one I've never been tempted to go back to due to the horrendous and annoying noise from children. I've never experienced it to such an extent in any other PE, but I guess its location makes it very family orientated, and I think it was early on a Sunday evening when I went. My advice is to take ear plugs, just in case.

Did you get her name?

"The Maudsley?" No Mr A D Close, I lived in a gentrified enclave off Camberwell New Road, and haven't ever been tempted to go back to live there, or even to make a nuisance of myself on the SE5 forum. In fact, I'd like to see a kind of Check-point Charlie at the top of Dog Kennel Hill - just to keep the ED house prices suitably inflated.

OOPS, yes the name is now MIND, thanks for pointing that out.

Who cares about Camberwell? I escaped from there 20 years ago.

"Whilst I agree that the London Bridge train is more useful I believe it is ones inclusion on the globlly recognised tube map that brings the hordes and ensuing house price inflation." That seems to assume that rampant housing inflation and hordes are a good thing. "Also being a single stop from Clapham will make DH an obvious overflow - Balham and Tooting have done well for no other reason than proximity to Clapham." Actually, ED doesn't seem to have done too badly with the limited transport links it has already, and in spite of the undeniable attraction of being liked more closely to Clapham (I realise that it's inconceivable that anyone could really not want that). Also, surely Clapham is only a single stop from Denmark Hill already, but that hasn't made much difference to DH so far. Personally, when I chose to come to live in ED, the last thing on my mind was whether it was convenient to Clapham, and I have very little interest, in terms of the EDF, in what benefits the ELL will bring to Camberwell. However, in terms of its usefulness for ED, if I were to wish to take the ELL, I would almost certainly travel one stop to Peckham Rye from ED station and change onto the ELL there.

There is/was a clothes and shoes recycling bin at the Sainsburys recycling centre, but in my experience the Mencap shop near the roundabout are the best for taking donations and in terms of their opening hours. As far as I know, the only legitimate door to door clothing collectors seem to be Christian Aid, but they only seem to do it once a year. The illegitimate collectors seem to have spotted an opportunity have been reluctant or have failed to take up.

I'm very interested. "Another thing of interest was the sainsbury's "freezer centre" which would be about on the corner of Northcross." This was before my time in ED, but I do remember the one in Streatham High Road, when I lived in Balham and Clapham.

Well, it certainly needs to be edited for accuracy.

"Why is this issue turned into a middle-class versus working class one?" Because Zebedee, the issue of betting shops, as opposed to the opportunities for betting, until recently only available to the wealthy, has always been a class issue. The area I was brought up in had a restrictive covenant that prohibited betting shops and fish as chip shops, but the council estate a mile away had plenty of both. What we may have in ED are tensions between indigenous residents and newcomers, with a clash of expectations and/or nostalgia for ED as it was before gentrification took hold. We may not be divided by virtue of wearing bowler hats and flat caps anymore, they have, arguably, been replaced by baseball caps, trackies, certain clothing labels, hoodies (the people who wouldn't have experienced student union politics, and certainly not in 1972 when only a tiny percentage of people did) as opposed to whatever modern city (and Foxton's) workers are wearing these days. I do think that social grouping (what classless America tends to refer to as white and blue collar) has an affect on the general perception of betting shops, and while I don't object to them, I'm am wary of establishments that are only run with the only purpose of encouraging a potentially addictive past-time for a lot of people. I'm aware that the same argument can be used against pubs, but they do not tend to run exclusively for the purpose of selling alcoholic drink these days . What's your view on the issue of more betting shops in ED? You didn't enter into discussion about the subject, and tell us.

"I think we should all write to support him in keeping his job. What do you think?" Risky for him, in as far as they won't appreciate the fact that he's been talking to his customers about his unhappiness with aspects of his job and management decisions. There was a similar case not long ago, where the postman got into trouble and the management they didn't change their minds, in spite of the support voiced by his customers.

"and its not as manic as Trafalgar Square." Trafalgar Square isn't manic on NYE these days, it's closed. I'd be surprised if there was general access to Parliament Square either. Last year I watched the firework display on the river, which was good.

"My great Grandmother was living at 47 Fellbrigg Road Camberwell on 1891 Census the only one I can find is in East Dulwich and the road appears to be still there." In 1891, this would have referred to to the Borough of Camberwell, of which East Dulwich was part at that time. You will find some members of EDF, such as EDOldie, often lamenting its departure from the political map in 1965.

Merry Christmas.

"Christians have monopolised Christmas and carol services?" Well spotted, give that man a prize. Overheard recently by someone I know: "Trust the church to cash in on Christmas".

"Many of the restaurants on LL are hardly overflowing......." This is true, but that is rather dependent on quality of food, ambiance and other things. Is that also true of betting shops? ED is kind of overflowing with them. I think it's a class issue, what's Lousia's view?

"Okay - can anyone recommend a carol service for Christmas Eve that doesn't include a church service. Hypocritcal I know, but I would love to sing tra la la la la laaaaaa, but know my poor atheist husband could not tolerate too much religion. Don't mind whereabouts in London it is - though local of course would be lovely." Too late really for carol services, secular or religious, if they hadn't happened before, they tended to take place today. I have a lot of sympathy with the view that Christians have monopolised Christmas and carol services, and I believe that atheists should boycott such events.

"Lights in the trees at Goose Green would be good." I was only thinking that myself, and it would make an amazing difference. I wonder if anyone will look to improve the very 'municipal' looking Christmas lights on LL before next year. An impressive but tasteful display could be good for trade.

Maurice, were you really expecting the architecture of LL to have changed in the decades since your last visitation? ED isn't really known for its architectural wonders, but rather as an example of an unspoilt Victorian suburb, and it is this which seems to attract people to it. If I wanted grand Georgian, I'd go to the gentrified islands in Camberwell, but (having lived one of those before coming to ED) I'd be conscious of the many down-sides of that.

The twisted logic of dog crap being a class issue in ED beggars belief. It's only a class issue in that, in the past, it's been the traditionally working class areas that have had to put up with it, while other areas have had it cleaned up. No-one, regardless of their social 'class' should have to put up with pavements or parks covered in dog crap (as they used to be), and especially not in areas where children play, and it can be very easily avoided. The fact is that dog crap in the streets and in parks has become an issue in terms of its social unacceptability across the whole country since the early 1990s, and the cleaner streets initiatives of that time, and the social class of an area or the people who are affected is completely irrelevant. Having said that, I am not anti-dog by any means, but with dog ownership comes responsibility, part of which is to make sure it goes in the right place and to clean up after it.

"... attack happened in October and the yellow witness appeal boards have been up what, a week or 2? [big sigh]" If they've made arrests, it's possible that that they're looking for potential witnesses in order to pursue a successful prosecution, rather than to assist the apprehension of the suspects. So the timing of the boards going up could make very good sense. However, it's a pity that the police don't seem to have moved beyond those yellow signs and towards making use of websites like EDF.

I've got it but not opened it, I'll save that little treat for later.

"I was buying some oh so meaty, oh so fishy Whiskas at at the store and the check out lady said something about how the East Dulwich Sainsbury's sells more cat food then any other Sainsbury's in the UK (or it might have been in London, one of the two)." The cat food aisle in Sainsburys seems to the place to meet people in ED. I was loitering there yesterday when my name was called out by a neighbour who I haven't seen for ages, swiftly followed by me calling to say hello to a friend who lives locally. I never usually see anyone I know when I'm in that shop.

I went in today, and I signed the petition while I was there.