sphillips

Record number of people this year. Over 500. Yes, it was rammed! St John's Church Council will be reviewing the Christingle Service at its meeting in mid January. Given the number of people attending Christingle, would it not be better, safer and more comfortable to move to 2 Christingle services on Christmas Eve next year; - one at 3.30pm and another at 4.30pm? St John's Church Council would appreciate your views. Stephen (Churchwarden, St John's)

Everyone is welcome! Entry to the church is via the Goose Green Centre. There is plenty of buggy parking space. An informal service for young children. The church is always very full for this, (packed!) so best to be seated in good time. Starts at 4pm and lasts for around 45 minutes. Carols. Financial collection for the Children?s Society. Hope you enjoy it.

I lived in Northcross Road for 3 years on the Lordship Lane end. If parking near your property is important to you, forget it. Don?t even think about a quiet Saturday morning; the market traders set-up very early. I enjoyed living there, but 3 years was enough. I had the most wonderful neighbours however. It?s very central, great community. On balance, no. Look elsewhere in East Dulwich.

And if the world-wide Anglican Communion were to divide, I doubt that many would really care that much; it?s only held together now through compromises which accepting liberals (in the UK, US and so on?) versus traditionalist conservative African/(some) Asian provinces - all thoroughly detest. The Archbishop of Canterbury is the leader of the Anglican Communion. Successive Archbishops, traditionalist and liberal (loose terms) all come along with the sticking-plaster, play for time, kick controversy into the long grass by setting up endless commissions, consultations and try to keep it together. They see it as their duty to keep the family united. That?s their job, but a pretty hopeless and thankless task. No wonder Archbishop Rowan has had enough and has decided to return to his books; who can blame him? I have no sentimental attachment to the world-wide Anglican Communion, and neither, I suspect, do regular or irregular C of E church-goers. The only reason, and I can?t think of any other, that I would seek to avoid a divorce, schism, is that if we liberals go our own way, we desert and betray our sisters and brothers in the pews in Africa and elsewhere who seek equality for women and gay people. And there would be no going back. They?d be on their own ? and pity help them then. The militant gay-haters would be handed a carte blanche to do and preach what they like - and to treat them even more abominably than they do already.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I'm also struggling to understand why a gay person > would want anything to do with the christian > church. Why would you want to be blessed by an > institution which discriminates against you? It?s a fair point. Because we?re Christians? Parish churches vary. The world-wide Anglican Communion is very broad. Very. Ranging from inclusive parish churches in the C of E, who don?t put up with any nonsense about gay people being sinners or unequal; don?t have any issue with women vicars/bishops; all are welcome regardless of gender, sexuality etc. Broadly, and I generalise, these are parish churches within the liberal tradition of the C of E. Lots of them around, especially here within the Diocese of Southwark, including my own. Generally these parishes would support liberal movements within the church such as Inclusive Church; Accepting Anglicans; Changing Attitude; Affirming Catholicism. Interpret the bible for its relevance to today?s society. Almost certainly, sadly, within a minority within the world-wide Anglican Communion. Then, you have the traditional, conservative parishes, sometimes called Evangelical, broadly in agreement with movements such as Reform; and the ever-delightful (not) Forward In Faith, who appear to dislike everyone. And no liberal person in their right mind should set foot inside the door of a Forward In Faith church, although I know a handful of gay Christians who do ? and I find it both bewildering and a betrayal. But that?s up to them and their conscience. Basically, some parish churches don?t give a hoot whether you?re gay, straight, bi, not sure, don?t care ? and say so. Other parish churches do, and say so- and sometimes very loudly. Does that answer your question?

Silverfox, you claim that the church marrying gay couples would be ?seen as 'inappropriate' by some Christians, given the particular Church's teaching and tradition especially as there are secular alternatives.? Yes, it would be a radical step to allow gay people to marry in church. Just as it was a radical step to allow divorcees to re-marry; for women to be ordained; and so on. (I refer to the C of E of course). The church (of whatever denomination) however is not an exclusive, cosy club that exists to protect people living in the past, a tut-tut brigade clinging on to discriminatory traditions because, and only because, (according to your argument) it would upset some of the regulars. It?s not our church; it?s God?s. And God doesn?t discriminate. And if the church isn?t relevant to our lives today and society as it is now; and if the Gospel cannot be interpreted reasonably and responsibly, to meet the needs of the 21st century, what?s the point of it? ?Especially as there are secular alternatives?? And what if a gay couple don?t desire a secular alternative? I assume your response would be tough luck?! Silverfox: you also claim that those of us who try to change things from within the church could be seen as divisive, ?selfish even, as such actions may undermine the shared consensus of that religious community.? There?s nothing selfish in calling for equality within the church. And if the ?shared consensus? of a religious community is based on intolerance and bigotry, then it?s our duty to challenge it. Discrimination is often based on fear and ignorance. What are you afraid of? That a gay couple might turf up one day at your local church; demand to be married and take the piss out of the whole thing? Well, straight people don?t and cannot, so why would a gay couple, who genuinely and sincerely desire to be married, do such a thing? In Christ, ?there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for we are all equal in Christ.? Radical stuff for its time. And for today too. We could add ?neither straight nor gay?. All are equal, silverfox, not just some - all.

?The proposal will have institutional, philosophical, religious, linguistic and legal implications?? you claim silverfox. Even if we accept all that - so what? I think you?ve got yourself into a right muddle. DJK asks a straightforward question: Do you in principle think it is discriminatory not to allow gay people to marry in a church? Quite. Claiming that it?s just a small, unrepresentative vocal minority out to cause trouble and destroy everything we cherish won?t wash either. I guess that was the response to Mrs Pankhurst; or when Rosa Parks caused a fuss on the bus. Alice Thompson in The Times today: ?The Church has recently [only recently?] become shrill, unpleasant, divisive and exclusive, caught up in an inward-looking feud that appears to take no heed of its parishioners.? Nothing new there then, and I say that as a member of it, but thankfully and most definitely not the view of the church I attend.

God has never been concerned about homosexuality. It is only man?s prejudices that have invented this imaginary sin, not God. HAL9000 claims that ?Jesus upholds every jot and tittle of homophobic...law?. Where please? If anyone can point in any of the Gospel accounts to Jesus condemning gay people, please be my guest. No need to rush and dust down your bibles. None of the Gospel writers record Jesus as making any statement against homosexual people. The Church of England is just obsessed with a subject Jesus never taught about, than about the matters he did. It was very late into the Christian era before homosexuality was wrongly equated with sin and before the leaders of the church ?decided? homosexual people were moral affronts to God. I guess possibly around the same time that it was ?decided? that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute (no reference or evidence whatever in the bible that she was); it just didn?t suit the sexist views of the church leaders at the time that Jesus was so close and devoted to a woman; wouldn?t suit their sexist views at all! Doing a Dot Cotton and quoting, very selectively, bits from the Bible, sometimes inaccurately and frequently out of context, to justify bigotry and intolerance is a custom that?s been going on for centuries.

I agree with DJK. The prohibition on marrying people of the same sex in church is blatant discrimination. The Church of England even refuses to allow its clergy to bless Civil Partnerships in church, which is a hurtful act of exclusion for those who would seek it. It?s fine apparently for chaplains in the armed forces to bless nuclear submarines and all who sail in them, tanks, weapons etc but not two people who desire a blessing on their Civil Partnership. I?m a gay person, a committed Christian and attend church every Sunday. Not all church-goers accept the official teachings of the Church of England on these social issues by any means, just in the same way as we campaigned from within the Church for the ordination of women; will continue to call for the end to the absurd and wicked discrimination against gay clergy; will actively promote the desirability and necessity for women bishops and for an end to discrimination within the church however it manifests itself. Discrimination in any form, racial, ethnic or on the grounds of sexual orientation is contrary to the teachings of Christ. The established church should be challenged openly on its backward and wholly unacceptable stance and, thankfully, there are many committed Christians who are up for giving their intolerant barriers a kick. It doesn?t make some parishes terribly popular with the established Church, but that?s their problem, not ours. Silverfox: you?re perfectly entitled to your views and I profoundly disagree with them. The wording of your OP suggest that you find it acceptable, probably even funny, to write .... ?Which camp (no pun intended)? Thankfully nowadays, most people are rather more enlightened, considerate and accepting.

Like others here too, I hope that the young man who was injured is ok. And the poor motorist involved too. I live on this particular stretch of road. I agree with James Barber. The fact remains that it is very busy and between the two traffic lights, there is nowhere safe for pedestrians to cross. There are lots of children attending St John & St Clements school and going to the very busy playground here. Many come onto East Dulwich Road from Oakhurst Grove. It is dangerous there particularly, the exact spot, according to the OP, this accident happened. And I am not being anti-motorist or car-user, I?m one myself, but there is speeding along this stretch of road. Standing at the Oakhurst Grove bus stop in the morning waiting for the 37 (and it can be a long wait!) is a good place to witness some motorists who really pick up speed coming up past Tesco, the Murco garage, then putting their foot down to catch the traffic lights at the Adys/Crystal Palace Road junction. I am not saying that speeding was involved in this particular case; I don?t know the facts. But I?ve witnessed many a near miss here in the past. And, yes, I accept there are dozy pedestrians everywhere. Where are people who come onto ED Road from Fenwick and Gowlett Roads expected to cross?

Understandable advice that we shouldn?t flash our phones and be careful. I accept that, but only just. Interesting comment from the police to simonthebeaver: ?'why should you be unable to use your phone?? Precisely. Why should we have to change our behaviour and every day life? Adjust our lives to accommodate the minds of muggers. What are we doing? Where?s that leading us? Next we?ll be advised not to bother saving for and buying anything new for the house, just in case we get burgled; don?t purchase a new bike or car, they might end up stolen or vandalised. There has to be a difference between being street-wise late at night when you?ve had a few drinks, and being able to get off the train/bus in broad daylight/pushing you baby in a pram and call your mate/mother/partner on you mobile without fear. Surely? I have every sympathy with betsyr. It?s not about losing a mobile phone. Phones can be replaced. It?s the hurt, anger, shock and total incomprehension that another human being could do that to anyone. If you disagree, fine, but let?s keep it proportionate and even-tempered. Elsewhere on this Forum, there?s a heated exchange about the quality and price of burgers! Fair enough, but let?s get our priorities right in East Dulwich.

PeckhamRose, your comment is outrageous. Coming from a Humainst Funeral Celebrant, it is disgraceful.

Sunday 4th October. This is to let St John?s families on the ED Forum know, just in case you haven?t been to St J?s for a while, there is no Children?s Mass this Sunday. Instead, the main service is at 10.30am, Harvest Festival, followed by a Bring and Share lunch, to which everyone is welcome. Stephen and Robert Churchwardens, St John?s, East Dulwich.

I just get the feeling that some atheists are showing such intolerance towards faith ? and the Christian faith in particular - that it?s potentially as damaging as the religious fanaticism which they oppose. The fact is that many Christians are just as baffled and angered by what comes out of the mouths of some people who claim to be Christians, for example from the religious right in the US. Christians who selectively quote out of context from the bible to hurt and marginalise others are as misguided as non-believers who selectively quote, often inaccurately, a few words of scripture. As a Christian, my advice would be to take with a very small pinch of salt anyone who begins a sentence ?But it says in the bible...? Because firstly they?re usually point-scoring and secondly they clearly haven?t read it all! So, what I?d say to people who point to weird sects and cults whether in New Mexico or elsewhere is, yes, I think they?re as nuts as you do, but please don?t tar all Christians with the same brush. Radio 4?s Thought For The Day is a couple of minutes? reflections from a faith perspective amounting to a tiny fraction of broadcasting time. That?s not excessive surely? Best thing however would be to drop Thought For The Day altogether in my humble - it?s tired and worn out. Get on with the weather forecast! Do Humanists object to Prayer for the Day (crack of dawn on Radio 4) and all religious broadcasting? Where does it stop? Next they?ll be popping into some of the local churches in East Dulwich on a Sunday morning, getting up and announcing at the appropriate moment: ?Excuse me Father, just before you all receive communion, can I have 2 minutes of your time everyone...? As for Anglican Bishops in the House of Lords, an all elected chamber is the answer to that one. Atheist teachers discriminated against by faith schools. I?d like to see the evidence. Come on, if you can?t tolerate the ethos of the school, don?t apply to teach there. It?s a bit like me applying to work in an animal testing lab - I just wouldn?t dream of it. Each to their own. Tolerance on all sides. However I do remain unconvinced by this - we poor down trodden non-believers, the God Squad get all the perks - theory. The bus advert. If it means chill out, believe what you want to, take responsibility for your own life and actions without being made to feel guilty by anyone for holding your beliefs... Amen to that.

St John's, Goose Green, Sunday 21st December - traditional Service of Nine Lessons and Carols at 6pm is your best bet. Otherwise 11pm on Christmas Eve before Midnight Mass. You might wish to make a note of the Children?s Nativity Pageant on Sunday 21st December at 11.30am and the very popular Children?s Christingle Service at 4pm on Christmas Eve. Midnight Mass begins at 11.30pm. Christmas Morning Family Service at 10am. Other services at St John's over Christmas will be on the St John's website ? www.stjohnseastdulwich.org Stephen