Cazzlesuk

I agree with you up to a point - human rights and people should not be debated. Their rights and personal identity are as absolutely inherently theirs as anyone else’s and aren’t up for dispute. HeadNun as far as I can tell from her posts is engaging respectfully on a matter that affects HER life also, and so is essential to the conversation in a way that you don’t appear to be - or have any interest in contributing positively to. So you can pretend to have a higher understanding of the issues facing trans women than her but that is misguided and what she very accurately described as ‘male behaviour’ - this isn’t our first time seeing this or hearing trans stories in our lives, it is also our lived experience - not that anyone has ever given a hoot about it until now. Not that I agree with everything she says and like anyone (dare I say it even you) may have blind spots where she hasn’t fully figured it out yet (has anyone - including me). I also recognise that some on this thread are not posting in what appears to be a helpful or genuine way, every group has them and we should be calling them out as we find them (Alexander2022 - looking at you). But It is generally men attacking these women. So there really shouldn’t be any ‘debate’ that needs us to help solve your issues - call your Dad/son/brother/friends and engage in the conversation to shift the attitudes that leads to attacks on women and then watch us fling off the confines of gender pretty quickly - but then you won’t have these conversations with men will you - you’ll only pop up on here to ‘call out’ women as the issue for what you see as transphobia - when you're accusing women of the bigoted views that men have held towards women unapologetically for centuries, and still continue to trot out now when we dare to have an opinion on anything you think we’re not entitled to (mumsnet anyone?) but you won’t call them out on that will you? No, nothing wrong with a bit of casual misogyny, it’s only bigotry if we’ve changed our pronouns first....we’ll I’m calling you out on your bigoted opinions too -the double standards on display here are breathtaking and it makes no sense in 2023. I’d join you at the pub in SE london and scream slogans at the 5 opposition bigots who turn up if I thought it would help but I’d be turned on the second I open my mouth no doubt…..or we could call that plan b after you call your Dad/brother/uncle/friend. I’ll go back to my life now - this is such a toxic place to waste any more time - and the culprits are on both sides.

We might be able to have a more sensible discussion. Others on this thread I would agree with you are hateful, but I really don’t know where I’ve been hateful. And why you feel you have the right to express your opinion and not others - maybe look up the definition of transphobe and then come back and point out which of my comments were. Or why not share your solution. I don’t think it’s turning up at every pub in southeast london, but again, just my opinion. Thank God we have people like you to condescendingly ‘explain’ to us where we are going wrong

What I’m saying Alexander2022 is that we don’t have to agree on each others position to champion the idea that every single person deserves equal rights and no-one deserves to be attacked or feel fearful for their safety, in toilets or anywhere else. I really do hope I am woke, but that’s just my opinion. You’re entitled to your own, as long as it doesn’t impinge on anyone’s rights to live safely and equally. You are perfectly entitled to believe what you believe also.

I think the issue with this subject and many others where ‘rights’ are concerned is that we as humans aren’t very good at seeing the other side and waste energy focusing on our differences rather than our similarities. If we all band together and say ‘humans have a right to live with dignity and respect regardless of sex or gender identity’ and all that comes with that (safe spaces etc) as a basic premise then maybe we may come up with a solution. Toilets are simple - make them all unisex, fully enclosed cubicles (like the toilets at home) with either an open area visible to all to wash hands or put the sink in the cubicle. Lots of restaurants in london are already doing this and no-one is up in arms and as a woman it feels safe and secure and wonderful. Surely changing rooms the same can be achieved with fully enclosed cubicles with an open and visible external area - imagine how much nicer this would be for everyone - no massive queue for the ladies, the gents won’t be a cesspit of humanity (said with love). Sport is a trickier area, so are rape centres and prisons to truly balance rights but if we start with the premise I mentioned we must be able to solve it for everyone by balancing each groups needs and with an understanding that we are all on the same side - I don’t believe there isn’t enough money to achieve it - we are merely being encouraged to argue with each other as a distraction from the corruption and greed of the govt. I agree with some of your points HeadNun around the difficulties of achieving this in what on the face of it sometimes appears to be conflicting rights - there are bigots on both sides of course and so our default position must be to achieve equal rights for all. I’m happy to say trans women are women, use your preferred pronouns etc (although my personal preference would be that we all use they - it’s simpler and avoids offence where unintended like HeadNun above). I may not understand it fully, but I don’t have to, to respect your right to exist as you wish/feel without fear for your safety. The same applies to cis women, and trans and cis men of course. This also applies to any other perceived differences - race for example. Once you remove the characteristic from the discussion, it is hard to argue with the premise regardless of the issue you substitute - if you deserve/ have a right to it, then so do others. If we banded together a bit more - the govt may have to do it’s job and provide safe spaces for all and make sure all of our outcomes are the same - true equality. And it would then be interesting to see if we do see so many people with gender dysphoria to your point HeadNun if we ever do get to that point as then how does it really matter if we all get to experience life our own way without feare. One thing I would say that is important to me as a woman is to report crime and outcomes in life (pay gaps as one example) on the basis of sex - until we achieve this utopia it is very important - for both trans and cis - although recognising we would need to record trans women/men categories to make sure your outcomes are equal also - we can’t measure progress without doing this - I came to this conclusion after reading ‘invisible women’ by Caroline Criado Perez - very fascinating if a little depressing read if anyone is interested on the ways that being female impacts your life in ways you didn’t before realise.