annaj

Good point Mockney, it's never good when a first time poster is offended or put off. cazzyr, I honestly think this is misunderstanding and nothing more, but I'm sorry you're offended. I genuniely hope you find what you're looking for here and enjoy getting involved in some of the chat.

cazzyr, the lines from lozzyloz's post that you've quoted are phrased as questions, which supports my inital assumption that he was considering the general question of exclusive groups and their effects. I see the purpose of and need for an exclusive support or social group in many settings, but I can also see that it could be veiwed as seperatist and not entirely positive. I certainly think it's a valid debate and not mad at all. I also think paragon made a really good point about text being easy to misinterpret or take out of context, because it's presented without all the subtle extra cues of face-to-face conversation. It's happened before on here and I'm sure it will happen again. I don't think lozzyloz is homophobic and I don't think he meant to cause offense. A couple of people now have objected to your use of the term "hetty" (not me I might add, I found it twee and a bit irritating, but not offensive) so you can see how easy it is to cause unintended offense.

*bursts in breathless with excitement, beaming and full of fresh juicy gossip* Iknowiknowiknowiknowiknowiknowiknow! I just ambushed the new owners as they were leaving on their matching scooters (ah, cute) It's going to be *drum roll* an independent Italian serving home-cooked food with their own pasta and bread made on the premises. Opening in 7 weeks. I'll certainly give them a try when they open.

Great post Brendan! I would join in, but I fear the forum isn't ready for my internal monolgue. For now I'll stick with carefully worded posts and thinly diguised neurosis. Would love to hear what everyone else is thinking though, might fill BB's bit of paper.....

Ok, gave up on Europe in a strop after I got the first 3 wrong. Not even trying USA. Counties one cheats, or at least is very sensitive. It rejected Greater London three times and took points off each time then accepted it in the same (correct) place. Also gave up in a strop. I'm bad at geography ok? But good at other stuff.

mockney piers Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Annaj pointed out that people do like to hang > around with like minded types. > I'm having an awful time getting my > anglo-spano-caribbean-pedantic-geeky-a-little-bit- > jewish-looking-but-not-jewish-not-that-theres-anyt > hing-wrong-with-being-jewish swimming night off > the ground at the dulwich leisure centre. Well, if you would just be a little less pendantic about the exact ethnical ambiguity of your geeky swimming buddies, I'd be getting my costume. Cazzyr, I'm a "hetty" (as in Wainthrope?) and not a mother, so I can't say I know how you feel or what you're experiencing, but I can imagine that you face a fair amount of prejudice and ignorance. Maybe that has left you feeling defensive, because your response to lozzyloz was a bit harsh. He worded his post very benignly and I didn't detect any hint of homophobia, just curiousity about this exclusive group and probably about the concept of exclusive groups generally. Edited - because I realised part of it could be read the wrong way and didn't want any more misunderstanding!

Well who could resist that? Ok *sigh* group hug.

No loathing here. Not sure about group hugging though that might really push my personal boundaries ;-)

No, fear. Things haven't changed that much, nearly didn't come to the last drinks, because I was completely convinced I'd offended Mockney, but that's another story. :-$

Ok, Sean, I'm going to do some boundary pushing right now, because my natural inclination is to avoid conflict. Particularly with people I like and particularly when robbed of the non-verbal cues that I normally rely on heavily, so I'm aware that every word could be misconstrued. I see how passionate you are about this and I admire that, but to dismiss people's reluctance to venture into uncomfortable places as snobbery or prejudice is simplistic and judgemental. Everyone has prejudices. It is human nature to feel more comfortable around familiar things and people and the vast majority of people are drawn to other people who are in some way like them*. Anyone who denies feeling any prejudice is, in my opinion, not being honest with themselves. What matters and to some extent what defines us, is what we choose to do with that feeling. So, in that sense you are right. Questioning our prejudices and, where appropriate, pushing our boundries is important if we are to develop as people and as a society. But, and here's where it stops sounding like I'm agreeing with you, it's not something you can force people to do. Pushing someone out of their comfort zone may work, it may challenge them and lead to rewarding discovery. However, it's just as likely to make them feel defensive and withdrawn, leading to an unpleasant experience confirming (in their mind) that they were right to avoid whatever the situation was in the first place. As several people have already said, this is a community forum intended, I think, to be inclusive and welcoming. A space where, as long as people are respected and rules followed, opinions can be expressed and exchanged by everyone. Some people post for pure entertainment, but many, and I count myself here, post because it gives them a sense of community and belonging. The monthly gathering should then be an extension of that and should be inclusive and comfortable for as many as possible. If the forum brings people together who wouldn't otherwise have met, that's great. Or if the confidence people gain through meeting on here and in person brings them to try things they wouldn't otherwise have done, that's also great. But trying to force that process, by lecturing or making accusations of snobbery, is conterproductive. For my part, I'm garteful that you understood our reasoning for avoiding the Castle and didn't include us in your sweeping generalisation, but I wonder if you would have so readily done so if you didn't know us. If I didn't live anywhere near The Castle, I'd have given it a go if someone suggested it, but I wouldn't have gone to my first drinks there and I'm not surprised if people are put off. As for the question, where next? I really don't mind. I'll try anywhere except the Castle, for the reasons already discussed to death. Phew. My palms are sweaty and I'm shaking just a bit. I'm off back to my comfort zone. *this isn't just my general feeling it's backed by research, but I didn't want to go off on a tangent and get distracted

Oh dear, I'm feeling quite uncomfortable about this whole thing now. I really didn't expect the venue to change on my account, I just wanted to have my say. Vale's fine by me.

Just to show I'm not anti-old school this was my local growing up... http://www.britishpubguide.com/cgi-bin/pub.cgi?results:Gloucestershire:633 The majority of the regulars wore wellies and their trousers held up with baler twine (if you've seen Hot Fuzz, think of the scene where Simon Pegg needs two translators to speak to a local farmer) No ventilation and so thick with smoke you can hardly see across the room. Popular day time activities included cribbage and backgammon. Evenings a bit more lively with karaoke on a Saturday, Meatloaf's Paradise by the Dashboard Lights is a big favourite. Ladies served their beer in a ladies half pint glass. Now that's old school. ;-)

Horsebox, it wasn't an exaggeration, it was my observation when I walked home on Sunday night. I'll have another look tonight and see if I'm wrong. Nothing I said on my post was unture or an exaggeration and I slightly resent the implication that it was. I'm really glad the noise doesn't impact on your quality of life, perhaps you're a better sleeper than us or have a back bedroom or a better quality conversion job, I don't know. What I do know is that all I posted was my honest experience. As I've said several times, I know it's a popular pub and I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I'm tired of sitting up at night waiting for the noise to stop and wondering how I'll get up for work and I don't see why I shouldn't say so.

Fair enough Sean, I said that not everyone would share my opinion and I certainly don't expect the drinks to be moved on my account. Also, you're right the pub was there first and we knew about it's reputation when we moved in, but we didn't have a big budget and it was this place or somewhere seriously pokey not near The Castle. It never seemed that bad when we viewed the flat and we didn't want to judge the place purely on rumour, so optimistically (or perhaps naively) we decided to go for it. It's also worth mentioning that things got considerably worse after the smoking ban. I also appreciate that it's popular and I certainly wouldn't want every old-school pub to close down. I'm not even asking this one to close down, just to have some conseration for it's neighbours, it is after all in a residential area. I also don't consider it snobbery, I would be just as upset by middle class bores shouting about the stock market or hooray Henrys screaming about Henley if it was 1am outside my flat. As for whether we should frequent it or not, the only control we have in this situation is to express our preference with our custom, so that's what we're doing. Each to their own and as I said, no hard feelings. :)

Edited because I posted the whole thing twice - sleeve-mousepad interface!

I'm one of the people who's expressed reservations about The Castle before and if the drinks are there I'll give it a miss. It's not a question of being scared or intimidated by its reputation though, it's because we live nearby and that pub, or more specifically it's patrons, have a significant impact on our quality of life and so we really don't want to spend our money there. As I've said before, we are kept awake or woken pretty much every weekend by people out drinking on the pavement until the early hours. In the summer it's even worse with noise on weekday nights and during the day as well. We also regularly see fights and other antisocial behaviour (last weekend for example, a group coming in and out of the pub to their car that was parked up on the pavement with the stereo on full blast). So far we have tried speaking to the people who run the place and the punters themselves (both very pleasant but no improvement). When that got us nowhere we made repeated calls to the Southwark noise line and have spoken to the licencing team. None of this has made any difference and we've been told they're not breaching their licence by having people drinking on the pavement until 1am. It's worth noting that every house directly opposite or adjacent to The Castle currently has a For Sale board up, possibly coincidence, but I don't think so. We would move if we could afford to, but we can't, so we're stuck. Anyway, I know not everyone shares my opinion and if that's the majority vote that's fine, we just won't be there. No hard feelings though and we'll see you next time. Edited for a typo!

No, you're absolutely right Steve, my mistake. :)

It was discussed a while ago here - http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,69381,69484#msg-69484 when the planning application went through. Looks like flats.

You must have been drunk Chav, it wasn't me you head butted, it was Bellenden Belle!

We had a great time. All the waverers made it in the end, which was nice. As always didn't get to talk to everyone and didn't get to talk to anyone for long enough, but there's always next month. My highlights would have to be Bellenden Belle on sparkling social form, Mockney's explaination of the shape of God and marriage (an education for us poor sinners not married in the eyes of the Lord) and Sean (unsucessfully) trying to make a quick, quiet exit. We decided (wisely I think) against the afterparty at the Gowlett, but I'm sure you all had a good time. :))

Steve, just to clarify, I consider acupunture and chinese medicine to be completely different to homeopathy and would never dismiss them. In China traditional chinese and western practitioners train together and both disciplines are practiced alongside each other in mainstream teaching hospitals. There is a growing evidence base both here and abroad showing benefits of acupuncture either as a treatment on it's own or an adjunct to western medicine. Only last week there was a study in a mainstream medical journal showing benefit of acupuncture during IVF. From what I have found on a quick medline search, there are reports of removal of thyroid goitre under acupuncture anaesthesia, usually in combination with low dose pethadine or other dissociative analgesia, going back 20 years (Sean, I can send you some references if you want). Some western doctors are dismissive of chinese medicine and fail to understand it, because it is such a different system. In western medicine you identify a disease and try to cure it. The disease is the focus of treatment and is the same in every patient. In chinese medicine you look at the body as a balanced system and disease is believed to occur as a result of disrruption of that balance. So, two people with the same illness might recieve different treatment, because the chinese practitioner would attribute the disease to different imbalances. If you try to explain chinese medicine in western terms, without first understanding this fundamental difference, it doesn't make sense and is often therefore often dismissed. In contrast homeopathy has little or no evidence base to support it. Having said that, Samuel Hahnemann's original idea that a little of a pathogen could be used to cure or prevent is absolutely true and the principle behind vaccination, so not all bad.

mockney piers Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > There's a party just up the road I'm going to > afterwards, so I may be able to duck my head in > briefly. Oh so now the truth comes out. You start off all "I've got to go to a marriage lesson" then let slip you've got a party up the road, no doubt with your much cooler friends. I'm on to you mockney!

I work in a hospital, so hopelessly un-green. In clinical areas the lights, computers and technical equipment all have to be on 24 hours, because they're being used. The really scary thing is the waste. All clinical waste, anything that has come into contact with a patient mostly gloves dresisngs and equipment, is incinerated. With infection control becoming increasingly important, more and more equipment is designed to be single use and disposable, so waste is increasing. To reduce the amount of waste that's incinerated, "household" waste is supposed to go into separate black bins, but there are never enough black bins. In addition there is a huge amount of laundry each day, all washed at high temperatures. When you start to think about the environmental cost of a hospital it's staggering, but what's the alternative? It comes down to a quesiton of the needs of the patients versus the needs of the world. Would you accept a higher chance of cross-contamination and hosptial acquired infection in order to reduce the carbon footprint of the hospital? Probably not.

mockney piers Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Sadly it would appear i'm at rolling pin school > tonight, so I'll see you all in March :( Surely, you'll need a drink afterwards?

Much more interesting since HonaloochieB appeared.